As I watched the series finale of Castle last night (I know, nothing I ought to admit to) what I thought was the end came, where Castle and Becket are both lying on the floor, shot, and bleeding out. I thought everyone was going to die. . . . And then they flash forward 7 years and they both survived and have a bunch of kids.
I mentioned to my wife how it would have been much better if everyone had died, like Shakespeare would do. Of course she gets all in a twist about how horrible that is, and why can't I appreciate a happy ending.
My response was, death is one of the few certainties we have.
To prove my point I asked her to name 2 people who had never died. (I thought she might try to claim Christ as one. Of course, the atonement required that he actually die, in order to be resurrected, and I didn't want to argue about that, so I said 2.)
A few minutes later, she said: "the 3 Nephites."
I was actually impressed.
So I asked her, "So, What Do you Know About The 3 Nephites?"
Turns out, no so much. But me either.
I mean I know the Sunday School answers that they made the same request as John the Beloved, when Christ appeared in the Book of Mormon. It was unknown whether they remained when the Nephites became wicked again, but they ministered to Mormon and Moroni in Mormon 8:11. They were then claimed by some to have appeared from nowhere to assist church members in trouble, only to disappear after rendering their aid. But that's about it. (Certainly no stories of such strangers “bringing the souls of men unto [Christ].”)
So I ran a quick google search and came up with Wm. Wilson's Encyclopedia of Mormonism entry here that calls tales of the 3 Nephites "one of the most striking religious legend cycles in the United States. . . . these stories are not official doctrine and are not published in official literature. They are based on the Book of Mormon account of Christ's granting to three Nephite disciples, during his visit to the New World following his death and resurrection, the same wish he had earlier granted to John the Beloved-to "tarry in the flesh" in order to bring souls to him until his second coming (John 21:22; 3 Ne. 28:4-9). The Book of Mormon account states: "And they [the Three Nephites] are as the angels of God, and…can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good. Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the great and coming day [of judgment]" (3 Ne. 28:30-31)"
LDS.org has an entry under "Three Nephite Disciples" that says (among other things) "They were translated so that they would feel no pain and would not die" (3 Ne. 28). Which doesn't seem right as I'd always understood “Translation” to be the Old Testament version of what after the atonement became being part of the “first Resurrection.” Thereafter, I’d always been taught that folks would be “changed in the twinkling of an eye.” (3 Ne. 28:8) Essentially dying and being resurrected simultaneously if there was a need for them to do so.
The events of 3 Nephi 28, are clearly after Christ was resurrected. But since Christ promised the 3 Nephites to "never taste of death" or “never endure the pains of death” and “not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh” (3 Ne. 28:7-9) then they aren’t dying. So then it would appear that they aren’t being “twinkled” (At least not as I understand the concept.) either.
Yet, apart from these 3 men (and John the Beloved/Revelator), I am unaware of ANYONE being translated after the atonement.
(Yeah, I know Parley Pratt claimed people who are translated have a terrestrial body; and people who are resurrected have a celestial body, but I’m fairly certain that this is his opinion only. Besides, classification in and of itself, rarely leads to understanding.)
So are the doctrines of Translation and Resurrection mutually exclusive? Are they pre- and post- atonement sides of the same coin? If so, are the 3 Nephites (and John the Beloved), just the exception?
Or (as is more likely) am I just wrong, and they really are independent things (for different purposes)? And if so, what does God need either class of folks for? (See, D&C 49:8)
Most important though, is if both John the Beloved and/or the 3 Nephites remain on the earth to “bring the souls of men unto [Christ]” then where and how are they doing this? You’d expect that after almost 2,000 years, these guys would have hundreds, if not thousands of stories told about how they brought souls to Christ. Yet, I’ve never heard a 3 Nephites story that didn’t sound like what most folks would call a guardian angel (1-3 unknown guys show up and help out an already “converted” person in a time of need). While this may be nice, and allow for a happy ending, I don’t see how that helping hand brings the recipient to Christ. On the contrary, rather than teaching faith in Christ, and repentance (changing our hearts) through his atonement, such stories teach us to seek for unknown strangers who appear based on our worthiness/tithe payment/temple attendance/scripture reading/Sabbath observance, or other principle that teller of the tale (or the Church™) decides to emphasize as a basis for the stranger’s help. Whether factual or not, I’m not convinced that such stories have any real meaning or benefit.
I do see how they can be harmful though. I mean, if I’m checking all the boxes that the Church™ says I’m supposed to (yeah, they’ve probably invented more boxes than anyone can actually check, and they’ll always come up with a new one if you get close, so you’ll never be able to say that. But if you could . . .) Then why didn’t the 3 Nephites show up to help me in my time of need? And now what am I focusing on? (It’s NOT faith in Christ and Repentance)
And finally, where are the missionaries that are going on “splits” with the 3 Nephites? Where are the new members who gained a testimony due to the encounters with these men? They can’t be THAT bad of missionaries. I mean look at all they experience they should have in 20 centuries.
A reasonable person would look at all of this and say, impossible premise, no evidence of anything happening to confirm they are among us, let alone working to bring souls to Christ, looks like they don’t exist.
Maybe they’re right. But then again, I’m Dence.
You seem to be confusing "bringing souls unto Christ" with baptizing people into the church. Look at the life of Christ as an example. He ministered to the outcasts, teaching them to forgive and repent. To my knowledge, he never brought any of them to the synagogue or temple. I expect the 3 Nephites are found among the homeless, the addicted, the depressed and outcast.
ReplyDeleteRaNae, Thanks for taking the time to comment.
ReplyDeleteAt first blush I was a little miffed at your comment, as I think I've been quite clear that I don't equate baptizing people into the Church™ with "bringing souls unto Christ" at all. But upon re-reading what I'd written, I can see how you might have been confused about that. I tend to forget that my sarcastic personality doesn't necessarily translate well in print.
For the record, I'm agnostic about the historicity of the BoM. As such, I suppose I'm agnostic about the actual existence of The 3 Nephites. Consequently, I'd expect that even if they ONLY ministered to "the homeless, the addicted, the depressed and outcast" that there'd still be "fruits" of their "bringing souls unto Christ" over some 20 centuries of doing so. But I've yet to hear of any (verifiable or otherwise) accounts that would even suggest that. Without any evidence of these men doing what they are allegedly called to do, I suggest that perhaps it is because they don't exist.
Honestly, I don't know either way. But my critical thinking brain tells me lack of evidence of a thing may very well be (though not necessarily so) evidence of it's lack of being.
It might be easier to want to believe if there were some reason for such a being's existence.
But then again, I’m Dence.
I am not surprised at the lack of "proof" concerning the 3 Nephites in historical accounts. Other than Joseph Smith, I don't know of any other seer or revelator who could write anything concerning the real history of this world. He might have been able to tell us what they had been doing, but he had other things to worry about.
ReplyDeleteHere are a couple other verses to consider, but they certainly won't be convincing of anything one way or the other. D&C 49:8 says, "Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of." Who are these holy men? I don't know, but the Lord said Joseph didn't know about them. I don't expect their deeds were being published as miraculous accounts in the newspapers anywhere.
Here is what we do know about the 3 Nephites. In 4 Nephi verse 14, they were still around, even after 100 years. By verse 30, after 210 years, those same disciples were being cast into prison, rending the prisons and doing miracles, but the people just tried to kill them. They were cast into furnaces, they were thrown into dens of wild beasts, but no amount of miraculous rescues softened the wicked hearts to believe them. After 260 years, the righteous Nephites became rich, proud, and vain. The disciples who tarried "began to sorrow for the sins of the world." By the end of 300 years, they were the only righteous people left in the land. The last word we have is from Mormon 8:10-11. "And there are none that do know the true God save it be the disciples of Jesus, who did tarry in the land until the wickedness of the people was so great that the Lord would not suffer them to remain with the people; and whether they be upon the face of the land no man knoweth. But behold, my father and I have see them, and they have ministered unto us."
After reading these verses, I wonder what "fruits" of their "bringing souls unto Christ" are you looking for? Miracles do not make true converts. If the "3 Nephites" had the power to make people believe, the Nephites as a whole would never have been destroyed. According to Mormon 9:22 this was the commission unto "his disciples who should tarry": "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature; and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned; and these signs shall follow them that believe-- in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover; and whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will i confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth." It doesn't say the "disciples who tarry" will do those things, it says those who believe in his name will do those things. Just because the tree doesn't produce fruit yet doesn't mean there isn't a gardener (see Jacob 5).
Whether or not you believe the Book of Mormon is historically accurate, do you believe that the description of the wickedness of the people matches that of our day? If a true disciple of Christ were to tell you to repent of your favorite sins, without trying to use miracles to convince you, or telling you their true identity, would you accept their rebuke, or tell them to mind their own business?
I agree with your original post that the 3 Nephites are probably not going around helping active Mormons change flat tires. Where I disagree is the point that just because their work is "off the radar" is reason to disbelieve in their existence at all.
RaNae, thanks again for your comment.
ReplyDeleteI'm also not only aware of D&C 49:8, I referenced it in the original post.
To be clear, I'm neither seeking signs or miracles, nor am I convinced by claims of such.
However, Alma 32 (as well as the Lord in Matt 7:20) tells me that I should look at the fruits of things when I judge them to be of worth, or not. And I think we know what the Lord of the vineyard would do with a tree that still doesn't bear fruit after 2K years (Jacob 5).
And while I don't know that I have a favorite sin, I do feel called to repentance by my own heart, continually. But I also know that due to agency, no being can truly bring anyone to anything.
Yet, none of this has much to do with what I think are the 3 questions I’ve asked, that remain unanswered:
1) In ~2K years, what evidence is there that the three Nephites are actually doing anything requiring their physical presence, to bring souls unto Christ? (And I suppose by extension, what, if anything, should we infer from that evidence, or lack thereof?)
2) IF the your scriptural account of the three Nephites IS accurate, what gospel reason is there for such a being's existence?
3) Are the doctrines of Translation and Resurrection mutually exclusive/pre- and post- atonement sides of the same coin? (And if so, is this act of giving the 12 in both old and new worlds “1 wish” just the exception?)
If you (or anyone else) have an answer to any of these queries, I’d love to hear what you have to say.
The bottom line for me is that I don’t need to have faith in the three Nephites (or anything else) as long as I have faith in Christ, and change my heart by repenting. Understanding other principles, ordinances, doctrines, etc. may help my natural man body/brain not fight that faith in Christ. If so, then it’s useful, and of worth. But if it’s not, I choose to exercise my agency to disregard it.
Maybe that’s not the best way. But then again, I’m Dence.
Thank you for clarifying your questions. May I ask whether or not you also question the status and activities of John the Beloved over the past 2000 years? I don't know that they are doing anything requiring their physical presence, but that was the request they made, to continue working in an unproductive vineyard until it finally produces good fruit again.
ReplyDeleteTo your second question, does there need to be a reason for their existence, other than to show that God is merciful and He means what He says when he grants the desire of someone's heart? Apart from that, in my own life, the story of the Nephites show me how far beneath our privileges we live. My personal belief is that the 3 Nephites would have been part of the city of Zion if they had lived in the days of Enoch. They have experience living in a society that was worthy to have the resurrected Christ minister among them, so they have a much better idea of what is needed for us to become Zion than anyone else living in these days.
If I understand you third question, I think you are asking whether translation is the equivalent of resurrection, depending on whether it happens before or after Christ was resurrected. If it is the same, is having post-resurrection translated beings an exception to the rule? (That is what I think you are asking.) My response is that 3 Nephi 28 explains what we know of the translated state. If their bodies were not changed, they would have had to die, but their bodies are not changed to the extent they will be when they will be prepared to dwell with God in the heavens. Alma tells us that we will stand before God to be judged in a resurrected body. I think for this purpose, translated bodies meet the requirement. However, if you are thinking of a resurrected body in terms of what degree of glory it will have, that is probably included in the "greater change" mentioned in 3 Nephi 28:40. In this case, these disciples will be raised to a glory in the same way that every one of us will be, which you might call "resurrection, part 2".
I do not think that the act of giving the 12 apostles/disciples in the old and new worlds a "wish" is an exception to anything. God is no respecter of persons, but I personally have not paid the price to be granted this "wish" that they have. Alma 29 tells us that God does grant unto men who know the difference between good and evil the desire of their heart. Interestingly enough, his first 2 verses sound like what I think you imagine the "3 Nephites" doing, and Alma called that desire a sin. (At least at that time. I believe the time will come when that type of missionary work will be the ultimate division between wheat and tares, but it isn't yet.)
Thanks for the dialogue. There truly is no reason to have faith in anything other than Christ. My testimony of the Book of Mormon is what laid the foundation for my faith in Christ. It is not the history of the book, but the application of the true principles in the Book of Mormon in my life that has brought me through trials with a greater understanding of who Christ is and how he works in my life. The story of the "disciples who tarry" sparks hope in my soul, and helps connect my experience in these latter days with the hope and reality of Zion. While I have not seen them, my faith includes the reality of true messengers and disciples who can teach with the spirit, free from the false traditions and philosophies mixed in the teachings of our day. For this reason, I have tried to respond to your post. I still do not know what fruit you are looking for, apart from "proof" which would only be hearsay. You say we both know what the Lord does with an unfruitful tree, but I don't think you meant he takes the persuasion of his servant to try to save it again. The parable itself says the extra effort eventually works. I hope to see that day soon.
RaNae:
DeleteThanks for not taking offense to my reply, and for giving me your honest opinion. I too appreciate the dialogue.
I feel that we may be like the new android commercials: together, not the same.
First, I don't know what I think of John. I think his request may have been a little different, simply to tarry until the 2nd coming, without a stated reason for doing so. But in general, as far as granting someone the desire of their heart, I don’t really think of the Lord as some sky genie that grants wishes, so I don’t necessarily believe that it is within his character to do so (Though he certainly could, and I’m not saying he didn’t. Lets just say “I don’t know,” but based on what I DO know, I doubt it.) Still, if such tales give you comfort, great. We aren’t all the same, but we can still be together on what matters.
Second, as to the why create/allow/even have such a class of person, I just don’t see how such an individuals existence demonstrates mercy. I’m OK with folks like Log that I expect would say something like “we don’t know God’s purposes, and we don’t need to.” Childlike faith is great for those who have that gift. But to me everything in creation has a purpose, and I’m not convinced that any of us is incapable of understanding, at least a portion of that purpose. Further, it is my experience that when someone does something that appears to be out of character, it’s natural to expect that it’s for not only a reason, but for a really good reason. Knowing what is not understanding, knowing why is.
Third, in a nut shell, my understanding of Translation and Resurrection is that in OT times (pre-Atonement) resurrection was not yet possible, so the chosen folks with truly pure hearts would be translated rather than suffer physical death. After the Atonement, the first Resurrection began, so the previously translated folks could thereafter die and be resurrected instantaneously (what I’ll call being “twinkled.”), and those chosen folks with truly pure hearts living after the Atonement began could also be “twinkled” if there was a need, or otherwise just be resurrected at some time later (whenever that might be). While I’d expect that the “twinkling” of the previously Translated beings occurred at or near the time of Christ’s resurrection, I’m not sure it matters, if it doesn’t happen until the end of the first Resurrection (whenever that might be).
The only scriptural exception to this idea would be these 4 men (John and the 3 Nephites [on par with ‘Ezra Taft and the Bensons’ as a great band name :D]) who were allegedly granted the desires of their hearts by the resurrected Lord.
If you believe it actually happened, I’m sure the 3 Nephites were good guys. But I wouldn’t conflate those not wicked enough to not survive the appearance of Christ in the BoM, to those that built and inhabited the City of Enoch. Still, they (the 3 Nephites) were among the 12 that Christ chose, and they would have been present for the peaceful governance of the land for almost 2 centuries after, so they ought to have a working knowledge of how to at least begin to establish Zion. Now THAT is a purpose I could get behind. Sadly, they don’t seem to be doing anything on that front.
As to Jacobs olive tree allegory, I’m pretty sure they cut out the branches that brought forth evil fruit and burnt them. Sure, they preserves some of the tree(s) in the end, but I hardly see the application to the 3 Nephites. I expect I’m thinking something broader: by their fruits ye shall know them. So if you have no fruits, do you even exist? And by extension, if the 3 Nephites have no fruits, do they exist? My honest answer is “I don’t know, but I don’t know if it matters.”
As long as we are together on faith in the Lord, and repentance, I think we can be different on just about anything else, and still be OK.
But then, I’m Dence.
The three Nephites will be involved in the Great and Marvelous work of God in the days to come.
ReplyDeleteThey will bring souls unto Christ, because Christ will be in our midst.
John the Beloved will begin the Great and Marvelous work of God by standing up soon to bring forth the Book of the Lamb of God. It will be a record of ALL 12 apostles in Jesus' day.
If you're interested you can read about how it'll play out here: http://greatandmarvelouswork.com/the-book-of-the-lamb-of-god/
Adam:
DeleteThanks for the comment. I browsed your link. Interesting, but far too detailed for me to form an opinion on without substantial study.
However, in the rest of your response I think you miss the mark.
If they exist, I'd fully expect that the 3 Nephites may well be involved in the Great and Marvelous work of God in the days to come. However, that begs the question of what are they doing NOW and what have they been doing for ~2K years. They certainly SHOULD be doing something today consistent with the "desire of their hearts," and should have been doing so for 20 centuries.
With respect to your contention that they will have a role once Christ returns, I say: so what?
What makes the 3 Nephites “The Three Nephites” is that the desire of their hearts was “that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.” (3 Nep 28:9) (Verses 7-8 make it apparent that this ends when Christ comes again in glory, ie. the “second coming.”) So the quality that makes them the 3 Nephites (apart from anyone else) is that they"tarry" UNTIL Christ returns. ANYTHING they do after that would seem to be what anyone who either is living at his coming, or is resurrected at or before his coming can do. They may have a special role as one of the 12 BoM disciples, but that would have little or nothing to do with being the 3 Nephites.
Moreover, I expect that 1) if you haven't been brought to Christ BEFORE he returns, you won't likely be here when he does, and 2) anyone who is here once that happens will all have a role.
John may be different as I don’t know that there is an expressly stated purpose for him to "tarry till I come." (John 21:22) (If you don’t take 3 Nep 28:6 literally. If you do, he has the same issues, as his desire was said to be the same as the 3 Nephites.) So you (or anyone else) can speculate as to what John may be doing until then, or why. But if that speculation doesn’t prompt faith in Christ, or repentance, I see it as a distraction, and not worth my time.
Finally, as I said in response to RaNae above, I tend to be of the opinion that granting any mortal the desire of their heart is not in the Lord’s character, and tales of him doing so are therefore not likely to be accurate. (They could be. I’m not saying for sure they’re not. If they are, I can accept it. But unless or until the spirit manifests it to me, or I receive a personal revelation on the matter, I not going to base any of my actions on that possibility. In other words, I’m agnostic about it.) Moreover, IF the Lord were to act out of character, it would likely be for a very good reason. And while we may not understand that reason entirely, I think we are capable of understanding at least a part of it. I think the fact that no one can seem to actually address the 3 questions I raise about the 3 Nephites surely says something.
But hey, I’m Dence.